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DizzasterJuice
16th Aug 2021, 5:23 PM

Would an aquatic civilization with no natural divisions even know war? Would technological advancement be slower though because a lot of tech is designed because of war? "Necessity is the mother of invention" so other adversities can also cause rapid technology growth.
Maybe something like the ETIs in the movie The Abyss.

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Oldarmourer
16th Aug 2021, 6:37 PM

"stay on your own side of that seamount"
"salt water over fresh water"

people will alyways seek to protect their local resourses...
or sell them to the highest bidder as we see today
the dream of a 'utopian' society is just that, the book 'The Lord of the Flies' was almost 100% accurate

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DizzasterJuice
16th Aug 2021, 7:33 PM

I agree with you on everything as it pertains to here on Earth. On land people will always protect their land. In an aquatic civilization (hypothetic) there would be no land ownership. There would be no borders to protect.

"stay on your own side of that seamount" would imply that a seamount could be a natural divider. Possible to a small extent I guess. Intelligent life could also simultaneously evolve in both open ocean and an environment that is isolated such as a thermocline. Possible but not probable. In "The Abyss" it appeared to be an environment isolated by a thermocline but James Cameron didn't clarify.

"salt water over fresh water" -- There is no saltwater without runoff from significant land mass over millions of years. The ocean on this planet is fresh water.

This isn't a "utopian" society either. They have to have some type of adversity to evolve and develop advanced technology.

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Fading
17th Aug 2021, 1:31 AM

There are lots of boundaries in the oceans: more or less salty water, colder/warmer water, for example Gulfstream is made possible by that subtle differences that are stable for quite a period of time.

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DizzasterJuice
17th Aug 2021, 3:58 AM

Again, I am not talking about Earth. This scenario could not happen here. The planet Cellebus has no significant land mass, which means no salt water, no gulf stream, no gulfs, seas, or bays. There is only one ocean and no substantial physical boundaries like there is on land.

"Ocean worlds", or "aquaplanets", are estimated to be quite common in the Milky Way galaxy. Jupiter's moon Europa for instance is completely covered in an ocean that is around 100 km deep. If Europa was in the habitable zone it would be one of these "ocean worlds".

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Zanquis
19th Aug 2021, 6:53 AM

On an Ocean world, a more natural divider would be depth and maybe what grows on the buttom surface.

There would be a natural divide between what depth certain creatures can handle. Or lack of depth in some cases.

Then there would be the poral and other stuff growing on the surface. Natural protection that would be valuable. Once value is established of something that can bring down a society.

There is an old movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy" about a society basically lives fully in hormony with it's surroundings and than by accident got a single empty glass cola bottle. That being unique to them and finding many uses for it, it starts fighting in the otherwise peacefull village. And yeah it was a comedy but the lesson applies to societies itself I think.

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DizzasterJuice
20th Aug 2021, 12:46 AM

I love that movie!
And The Gods Must Be Crazy 2

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Sleel
30th Aug 2021, 5:03 AM

An aquatic 'civilization' is extinct and waiting to die.And there is just as much border causing terrain under water as above. More since there is more under. Everyone isn't going to be drifting on the current, they are going to build homes. Near resources they need. That they are going to defend.
Another thing they are NEVER going to do is invent fire. And since they never will invent fire, they will NEVER learn to refine metals or do any of the other technological things that are ultimately, based on fire.
And never developing those things, they are extinct. Waiting for whatever comes their way to finally make it fact, and not a future event.
Any species that can't leave their homeworld is extinct and waiting to die, cause NO world lasts forever. And that is any civilization that chooses not to, or can NOT develop the tech required to leave that planet, and settle another.

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Oldarmourer
16th Aug 2021, 9:12 PM

Uisng Earth's topology as an example, bays, inlets, oceandand seas, all exist even underwater and can be divided into "this is my area and that's yours" seamounts, ridges, shallow and deep parts, there's more landscape under the sea than there is on top of it and what's dry land now was largely sea once

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DizzasterJuice
16th Aug 2021, 11:43 PM

But those aren't physical limitations to evolution for an open ocean aquatic species.
Example: Once Australia separated from the mainland, animals that can be found nowhere else on Earth evolved to that specific environment. But bottlenose dolphin can be found in every ocean in the world (except for polar regions).

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Guesticules
19th Aug 2021, 11:49 AM

And... you just mentioned a natural water divide

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Oldarmourer
19th Aug 2021, 12:57 PM

Which just proves that there are boundaries...
As mentioned before, coldwater, warm water, shallow water, brackish water, salt water, fresh water, thermoclines, undersea volcanoes, each and every one has lifeforms adapted to that area and often specifically to that area, the problem would arise when one that could survive in more than one area, like the dolphin cited, decides it can live anywhere so it wants to control everywhere..and it would happen

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Guesticules
19th Aug 2021, 11:49 AM

Good to see a new page :D

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Guesticules
19th Aug 2021, 12:02 PM

Am reminded of a story read <I>long</I> ago, about time travelling archaeologists who go back in time a basically rob the dead from this one tribe that 'buries' their dead with valuables in trees (or raised platforms)
After a while, the tribe starts to notice their dead are being disturbed, so they change how they deal with them, the time travelling tomb robbers then believe that either the tribe died out of moved on because they couldn't find the remains

This sounds kinda like what Rikalla is saying: you can't find something if you don't know where, or how, look properly: if you only look for one thing, you may miss something else

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SteveO
24th Aug 2021, 6:44 AM

An aquatic civilization could not have technology as we understand it. All our terrestrial technology is based on fire (heat) which is difficult to create under water.

It could be that development of their technology would be slower for them giving them time to mature.

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DizzasterJuice
24th Aug 2021, 10:30 AM

In the movie The Abyss the intelligent aquatic species' technology was based on manipulating water on a molecular level. Also they appeared to make use of bioluminescence.

Remember also that mammals never evolved to be any larger than a rat during the 150 million years that dinosaurs lived on Earth. But their small size allowed them to survive the K/T extinction event that wiped out the dinosaurs.

So on a planet of the same age as ours that had no dinosaurs, or an earlier extinction event, or any number of other factors, intelligent life could be millions of years more advanced than us. And our solar system is quite young compared to many other solar systems in our galaxy, by billions of years.

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Sleel
30th Aug 2021, 5:08 AM

That aquatic species also had space ships. That require fire and metal to make. And are obvious evidence of the writers not paying attn to world building at all. Cause the only way that alien species could have gotten here without fire and metal is to evolve here to undetected. And even filtering metals out of water, you still have to refine them. And use heat to shape them. An aquatic civ is never progressing past stone age.

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DizzasterJuice
30th Aug 2021, 5:28 AM

Those weren't "space" ships and they weren't aliens. The whole point of the movie is that they evolved here on Earth at a depth that was previously inaccessible to humans. It was the whole point of the divers breathing oxygen-rich liquid so they could reach depths never reached before. And as I said before, their technology was based on manipulating their environment on a molecular level, not any technology as we know it.

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SteveO
2nd Sep 2021, 3:38 PM

I always liked the water tentacle concept.

But to quote Montgomery Scott "I'll tell you what it takes to do tricks like that, it takes power". In other words to move and transmute matter requires energy and lots of it. Physics is unavoidable. There are only 3 basic sources of energy in this dimension, breaking chemical bonds or nuclear fission/fusion. Maybe they developed cold fusion technology under water but that's a hard leap to make without using one of the other 2 first.

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DizzasterJuice
30th Aug 2021, 5:32 AM

Key phrase being "as we understand it". Yes, they were millions of years older than our civilization so the time it took to get there is as relevant.

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